Nelsa Curbelo: There are already dialogues with gang leaders to advance to the first objective, which is to stop the confrontations and deaths

Nelsa Curbelo (80 years old), an expert in conflict management, is the president and spokesperson of the Penitentiary Dialogue Commission created by executive decree by President Guillermo Lasso in order to initiate a process of pacification in the country’s social rehabilitation centers , where this year 335 people deprived of liberty have been murdered at the hands of other inmates.

Since December 16, when the working group that brings together nine members, experts in different areas, was formed, Nelsa -shortly, as she prefers to be called- has already been three times visiting the Guayas Regional and the Litoral Penitentiary that they form part of the complex with the most overcrowding and violence in the country, a reflection of the prison crisis in Ecuador.

What is the goal of this Commission?

The first is to stop the confrontations and the deaths, these are the pillars of a peace process that is longer. Another objective is to humanize the prisons, which are true warehouses of human beings, especially in mega-prisons where they are overcrowded, fifteen instead of three in a cell. And then we have to make proposals to the Government on strategies that can be implemented to reduce violence and support the rehabilitation of people deprived of liberty, because without that it is impossible to achieve reintegration into society.

This conflict in prisons affects the whole of society.

That’s clear. Inside and outside the rehabilitation centers, (illegal) powers that act in Ecuador and abroad intervene. It is a systemic problem. The State has to recover its space and in other centers it has only to be had.

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What have you been able to see in the Penitentiary?

We were unable to enter the pavilions, but we discovered that there is no State there, there is self-government. They are ‘companies’ (criminals) that control the prisons, which as a result of the illegal economy handle about $ 20 million a year, ‘companies’ that have their own rules, their own commissary and their own security. They move millions, but with an aggravating factor, that illicit businesses are not paid for with money, but with drugs, which generates micro-trafficking, because they need to sell the doses to have resources. So if I am in a ‘company’ that pays me with drugs, I have to sell it to have money and that becomes a vicious circle.

It’s good business to run prisons like this.

Sure, but the illegal economy is run inside and outside of them. That is why impacting the prisons implies impacting the neighborhoods and we are not only going to work with people deprived of liberty, it is also working with their families, with the officials of the social rehabilitation system.

Our visits to prisons do not reveal all the work we have done so far. We have also held meetings with the other commissioners, because we not only seek to produce documents but also to get involved and promote solutions.

And what have they done so far?

The commissioners have already met with almost all the ringleaders or leaders of the different groups, that was on the second visit we made, we were there with nine of them (not all together, but separately, he clarifies). Only they and us, not the police, the condition is that the dialogues are not recorded or photos are taken, there are no public authorities present, only them, one by one, and us.

What have they said?

That cannot be counted because it is confidential, but they have expressed as a common denominator their willingness to stop the confrontations, in some clearer than others, but for that they put some conditions and we have to see how those conditions are put in place, which are not they are towards the State, but between the confronted groups.

But there is talk of several leaders in those twelve pavilions that the Penitentiary has.

They are actually two groups that are facing each other, each one has a series of allies, similar to each other, but they are two sides. And there is a group that is neutral and to which the two opposing sides respect that neutrality. When I say groups I also mean pavilions. Now we have to work under those conditions to agree that there will be no more deaths.

Has a deadline been set?

Well, the decree gives us six months of action, we will see if more time is required later, but it is clear that we must start by stopping the confrontations and deaths and it is clear that there is a will for that. When an agreement is reached, it will be communicated to the public, we cannot say the progress because processes would be burned.

What conclusion did you draw from those visits?

The members of the Commission have a fairly clear vision of what the conflicts are, said by the same actors, and from there we have clarity on the steps that must be followed, which are not the same in all rehabilitation centers. We put the accent on Guayaquil because it is here where the most violent events have taken place and because the groups that are confronted here also have members in other rehabilitation centers where it can have repercussions.

Those deprived of liberty do not all belong to gangs nor are they leaders, they are there because they must seek protection, because if they do not join they will be beaten or extorted, that generates violence, they live with an anxiety that is not spoken there. They go to bed thinking what will happen at night, with everything they have seen, cremated or mutilated bodies, that generates anxiety and fear; and the one who is afraid attacks as a defense mechanism.

How do you see the actions of the State on the issue of the prison crisis?

He is trying to recover space, he has already started a census to really know who the prisoners are, why they are there, how is health, there are a large number of people with tuberculosis, which speaks of the conditions (of overcrowding) in which they live in the Penitentiary.

The ‘natural death’ surpasses the violent ones in prisons

The census will allow to order, classify in an appropriate way the people who are there and with that work in rehabilitation. For its part, the Council of the Judiciary prepared a report that it delivered to the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights (IACHR) in which it says that there are 9,000 people in preventive detention, 11,000 more people with pending guarantees, that is, it could be lowered overcrowding if the legal aspects that must be met are met.

So you have people there who are not guilty, but are among the dead. This disaster of lack of knowledge and of state presence corresponds to the authorities to correct.

On a personal level, not as a member of the Commission, what could you suggest to face the prison crisis?

I think that the Ministry of Government should be separated and a Ministry of Security created, because with all these lapses, and this is only part of it, I don’t see how the Minister of Government could deal with it. This is a personal opinion, but I already released it. And there are solutions that require resources. We need smaller rehabilitation centers, because effective control cannot be carried out on these mega-structures that have ended up being human warehouses.

Specifically, we are convinced that it is possible to advance in some things quickly, I believe that the internal conditions are occurring between the conflicting actors, they have the will to reach agreements among themselves to stop the confrontations and deaths. Rehabilitation is urgent, there are positive examples in Latacunga that should be replicated in other centers. (I)